Twin Verbs and the simple future tense.

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Phreddy
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Twin Verbs and the simple future tense.

Postby Phreddy » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:41 pm

Twin Verbs and the simple future tense.

The future tense is made by putting Ще in the sentence before the verb.

Before using the future tense it is first necessary to learn and understand some terms.
The future tense has two aspects or views: Perfective sometimes called Terminative or Completed and Imperfective sometimes called Incomplete or Continuous.
Perfective refers to a completed task or a single task – a one off “I will buy a car tomorrow”
Imperfective refers to an ongoing task “I will buy a newspaper every day”
It is these distinctions that form the basis of the decision as to which of the pair to use.

Today’s pair: To like/love: Обичам (Да) Обичам (Identical twins)

Ще да обичаш моята жена когато ти я видя – You will love my wife when you see her.
Ще обичаш Българя – You will like Bulgaria.

Are explanations needed? Can you supply further examples with other items and using other ‘persons’ ie not second person singular, that I have used?

Phreddy

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Postby balkankiwi » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:09 pm

Phreddy,

I see you're becoming right industrious here - i bravo na teb za tova!

But - I'm going to take issue with your illustrations of the use of обичам (obicham - I love). Ok, we're both foreigners grappling with this infuriating language, so perhaps a case of the blind leading the blind. But ... I think like this - you can say обичам of a person (обичам те - I love you) and sure, you can say eg (по принсип) - обичам малини (I love raspberries - to emphasise your big liking for them) - but to say, as you suggest, Ще да обичаш моята жена когато ти я видя - this would suggest to the (Bulgarian) listener that "You will fall [or become] in love with my wife when you see her". Which of course is NOT what u mean! What you mean is, that you will really like my wife when you meet her. For which there is another perfectly serviceable Bulgarian verb - харесвам - to like.

Think of it this way - if the person you made that statement to then duly met your wife, and later said to you "Аз обичам твоята съпруга" (I love your wife), what are you going think? You're going to think about belting him. And here's the point - Bulgarian (I believe) is a much more literal language than English. We can take liberties with verbs like "love" and our circle will know what we're on about. "I love the way you've done your hair", "I just love it when he talks like that", "I love to go to the countryside on the weekend" etc etc etc. But in Bulgarian - at least as I understand the language - if you're talking about feelings for another person, you'd better be careful about the verb you use. In relation to a person, обичам is reserved for real love, not just liking a lot, especially when the other person is already loved ...

If your wife is Bulgarian, I'd be interested in her perspective. Perhaps I'm wrong about this. :)

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Postby Phreddy » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:58 am

I suspect that you are spot on. Finding examples to fit the rules when one wouldn't be using it at all, is most difficult.
Unfortunately, my teacher has taken herself on 2 weeks holiday so I don't have my sounding board.

Thanks for the input

Phreddy

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Postby balkankiwi » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:44 pm

Can I suggest another verb for people to think on in its "twin" aspects - a very common one and useful to know, but difficult in that the two aspects are completely different words. The verb "to come" -

The imperfective (simple) form - идвам
But the perfective (da) form - (да) дойда

Its important to know the perfective form because it provides the root for the simple future and simple past tenses of the verb.

So "I will come" - ще дойда
And "I came" - дойдох

Some usage examples for the two aspects -

Let's say you're in the garden and the other half calls you for lunch. You might say "Добре, идвам сега" (Ok, I'm coming now). But if you're busy planting some veges, you might say "Аз съм зает/а в момента, ще дойда след пет минути" (I'm busy at the moment, I'll come after five minutes).

Would anyone care to conjugate (if that's the right word?) the two forms of "to come"? Clue - идвам is 3rd group, (да) дойда is 1st group.

(My personal aide memoire for remembering which letter is for which group - thEre Is A grouping :) )

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Postby Prigipesa » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:51 pm

Hi Guys

It is so lovely to see someone has such a passion for learning a language, especially when it is your own.:)
Now you know about Bulgarian exactly what I know about English, i.e. what is past perfect or imperative form, etc...

Dont mean to replace your teacher but to say: "Ще да обичаш моята жена когато ти я видя" will be hardly understood by any Bulgarian, so no problem, noone will belt you:))
I suppose the right would be: 'Ще се влюбиш (you will fall in love) в моята жена, когато я видиш" and then the Bulgarian would understand that you have fallen in love or "Ще започнеш да обичаш жена ми, когато я видиш" (but that would mean that you now dislike her without seen her), so still there will be no confusion regarding the meaning of the word "обичам"...

Галя

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Postby Milka » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:54 pm

The imperfective (simple) form - идвам
But the perfective (da) form - (да) дойда


Aha! The stotinka has dropped!

I've often wondered about how and when идвам and доида where used. Knowing that they are twins resolves that problem!

Thanks Phreddy and Balkankiwi.

M

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Postby Phreddy » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:00 am

Galia,
You are more than welcome to replace this teacher. I am using the thread to try to re-inforce what I am learning whilst hopefully helping others.
You will notice that we are trying to express ourselves using the rules of the Bulgarian language and sometimes saying things that we would not say in English.
The examples that you are commenting upon came from trying to use "обичам" in the perfective and imperfective aspects with the present and future tenses.
"Ще” plus “да обичаш”. The mangled sentence that no one would understand is what I arrived at. I would be most obliged if you would supply us with an illustration of this without bringing my wife into it.

Brik,
Conjugations are correct and examples would be most welcome.

BK,
A helpful post as always and illustrating the differences well. That sounds really condescending as written but it is meant to be complementary.
I don’t want this to come over wrong either but I have seen your aide memoire before but wonder why there is a need to remember which letter is which group. Am I missing something, is there more to learn. I just know that some verbs are easy: am, ash, a, ama ata and at; the two others have an ‘i’ and an ‘e’ involved.

Phreddy

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Postby Milka » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:09 pm

I'm looking at when to use the perfective and imperfective in Phreddy's example of buying a car tomorrow.

I have no problem understanding that I'd use the perfective to say I will buy a car tomorrow (as a one off action).

Am I correct in thinking that if I am (say) a car dealer and I will buy a car tomorrow and will buy one the day after, and a couple the following week etc I'd use the imperfective because buying a car tomorrow is no longer a one off action?

But what if I'm not a car dealer but I always change my car annually and I will buy a car tomorrow (because it happens to be that time of the year again)? Which verb form would I use, perfective or imperfective?

Am I looking too deeply into this? :?

M

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Postby Phreddy » Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:20 pm

Yes is the quick answer.
Whoever you are you will buy a car tomorrow. That is the sentence and only refers to that action. If you are the dealer and buy cars daily, when you say to someone " I will ..." you are only talking about that action.

It is about what you say not about what you actually do.

How about "I will drink a beer tomorrow"? If you are a regular drinker then you will drink tomorrow and the next day but you are only talking about that actual instance.

To re-phrase your question: Have I laboured the point too much?

BTW BK has made this point in posts with Brik. It may be in Verb a day or even in the aspect thread. Worth a look, B had similar problems.

Phreddy


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