Buying land safely - don't get fooled!

Need advice from fellow purchasers or sellers? Ask the experts here and swap experiences.

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jinx57
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Postby jinx57 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:35 pm

careful not to fall foul of buying what you think is regulated land at a good price only to find that over half the land you have purchased is un-regulated and the folk you bought it from haven't the funds to pay for you to put the rest of it into regulation ...........

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lyn
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Postby lyn » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:37 pm

jinx57 wrote:careful not to fall foul of buying what you think is regulated land at a good price only to find that over half the land you have purchased is un-regulated and the folk you bought it from haven't the funds to pay for you to put the rest of it into regulation ...........


You only need to regulate the bit you want to build on, though, obviously, it is wiser to regulate the lot!

We've had our eyes on a bit of land and have finally tracked the owners. There are 10 of them and none of them has any paperwork for it. Also the Obshtina also has no record of any owners, so I guess it's back to square one. :(

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gimlet
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Postby gimlet » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:47 pm

apart from the Skitza and notary deeds are there any other documents that I should be interested in from the seller ?


Well, your lawyers should guide you on this. Pin him or her down. It seems to me that you might need to see the following (not an exclusive list and not in any particular order):-

Description of nature of real interests to be bought (e.g. land, building, other rights)
Certificate of previous owner's marriage/divorce (to reveal any community property issues)
Partition Protocol if the land holding results from an agreed split between former co-owners.
Certificate that the property is not municipal
Certificate of heirs
Waiver of rights of pre-emption by any co-owners of inherited shares
Building permit with approved architectural plan.
Certificate of Incumbrances
Evidence of Payment of Outgoings
Arrangements to take possession (without this you might have to wait for any occupier to die even if you have paid and are the owner)
Details of any tenancies, including rights of renewal.

Really just all the sort of stuff you would expect under a land law system such as the Bulgarian one!!

Remember there is no state guarantee of ownership in Bulgaria. Your only guarantee is the right to take an expensive Civil action against anyone who challenges your right to ownership/possession.

The law states that the costs of a contract should be shared by seller and buyer (Art 186 Law on Obligations and Contracts). There is disagreement as to whether this can be varied.

BG9374

Postby BG9374 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:31 pm

I was on my third land purchase, only just found out the owner is having problems with paperwork! Viewed in March, agreed to buy last month, funds are in a BG bank waiting.

Now using those funds progress regulation status and when the owner sorts out documentation shall try again.

All work out for the best. :)

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EdnaBulgarka
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Postby EdnaBulgarka » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:46 pm

Sorry, but this is a very stupid list of documents, most are not neccessary and there is no notary who would ever ask for them, There is no way all of the documents to be gathered for one sale/purchase as some of them are for companies selling, others - for private sellers


gimlet wrote:
apart from the Skitza and notary deeds are there any other documents that I should be interested in from the seller ?


Well, your lawyers should guide you on this. Pin him or her down. It seems to me that you might need to see the following (not an exclusive list and not in any particular order):-

Description of nature of real interests to be bought (e.g. land, building, other rights)
Certificate of previous owner's marriage/divorce (to reveal any community property issues)
Partition Protocol if the land holding results from an agreed split between former co-owners.
Certificate that the property is not municipal
Certificate of heirs
Waiver of rights of pre-emption by any co-owners of inherited shares
Building permit with approved architectural plan.
Certificate of Incumbrances
Evidence of Payment of Outgoings
Arrangements to take possession (without this you might have to wait for any occupier to die even if you have paid and are the owner)
Details of any tenancies, including rights of renewal.

Really just all the sort of stuff you would expect under a land law system such as the Bulgarian one!!

Remember there is no state guarantee of ownership in Bulgaria. Your only guarantee is the right to take an expensive Civil action against anyone who challenges your right to ownership/possession.

The law states that the costs of a contract should be shared by seller and buyer (Art 186 Law on Obligations and Contracts). There is disagreement as to whether this can be varied.

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gimlet
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Postby gimlet » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:09 pm

There is no way all of the documents to be gathered for one sale/purchase


I quite agree, Edna. It all depends on the circumstances. But who limits themselves to what the Notary may ask for? It is not his job to make the best contract for the parties, indeed it would be incompatible with his neutral status.

I can't see anything there that relates to a company selling. There is probably a whole load of other stuff which is prudently required in such cases.

There is some useful info here

http://www.1001line.com/kniga_222/&#1087;&#1086;купко-продажба_на_имоти.html
http://www.bgnivi.com/index.php?p=usefully

Can you tell us a little about the Удостоверението за наследници (Certificate of Inheritance) required in the case of a deceased owner? Can удостоверение за семейно състояниеa (translated as certificate of marital status) issued by the municipality be relied on in the case of a Bulgarian resident outside Bulgaria? Or perhaps you could recommend a good lawyer?

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EdnaBulgarka
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Postby EdnaBulgarka » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:26 am

Description of nature of real interests to be bought (e.g. land, building, other rights) – this only applies if you are buying municipal building/land it's impossible for a physical person to make such!




Certificate of previous owner's marriage/divorce (to reveal any community property issues) – this is being checked by the notary at the time of the deal- they have private register with all information, as well as a declarations being signed from the seller




Partition Protocol if the land holding results from an agreed split between former co-owners. Not as of a few years now. When a land is split, two new separate notary deeds are issued for the 2 parties and two skitsas. If there hasnt been a split in the land this doc isnt needed.



Certificate that the property is not municipal - When you take the skitsa (land drawing) and the tax valuation and its all on your name there is no chance the for the land to be municipal- this would mean the seller hasn’t paid taxes on it over 10 years, in which case you'll never get a tax valuation in your name and in which case the seller would never have one in his / her name in the first place so they couldnt sell it to you at the notary without this!


+++ if the first doc on your list is required then this doc would contradict it! Your list is totally misleading to the buyer!!!



Certificate of heirs – Again depends who is the seller, if you have the seller John who sells by himself no certificate is needed, however if John is dead and his son is selling- then yes. Again this doc is not needed in every case as it simply may not exist if there are no heirs.




Waiver of rights of pre-emption by any co-owners of inherited shares If you can provide the Bulgarian name of that document, please.




Building permit with approved architectural plan. If you want to build yes, otherwise this is again not required. In any case this would not be a sellers obligation




Certificate of Incumbrances – yes this is needed everytime and it should be fresh at the time of the deal. Its pointless to request one from the seller long before the deal (unless you are paying for it) this certificate is valid up to the time of issue only. A check can be made before issue in the court in person as well.


Evidence of Payment of Outgoings Again please provide the Bulgarian name for this document, never heard of it. Do you mean for paying the land or what outgoings?




Arrangements to take possession (without this you might have to wait for any occupier to die even if you have paid and are the owner) If that's the case this would be written in the notary deeds, and when the deal comes the notary would ask for either 1/ death certificate of the person that have kept the right to use/own the land/house or 2/ if that person is still alive he needs to attend the deal and sign that he agrees to sell




Details of any tenancies, including rights of renewal. Yes if such existed

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gimlet
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Postby gimlet » Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:27 am

Description of nature of real interests to be bought (e.g. land, building, other rights) – this only applies if you are buying municipal building/land it's impossible for a physical person to make such!


Sorry, I don't understand this. Are you saying that it is impossible for a physical person to buy a building as distinct from the land underneath it? Or for a physical person to buy the right to build as distinct from the land? We have been told for years that these are among the only immovable rights that foreign citizens can buy.

With regard to the Notary's magical ability to access personal data, what would be the point of discovering that land is marital community property when the parties (excluding seller's wife) are standing in front of the Notary? The deal could not go ahead.

You sound like a bit of a hustler to me, No.1 :wink:

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EdnaBulgarka
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Postby EdnaBulgarka » Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:01 pm

Before calling me a hustler reply to the questions I asked you for the names in Bulgarian of these "documents" you say are needed. Your information is misleading and confusing to a buyer and its not good for WRONG information to be on a forum which is for to help buyers in Bulgaria!

Two of the docs on your list contradict each other! How can you post this like facts?

Sorry you dont understand my post you dont understand much about land documents either.

"Description of nature of real interests to be bought (e.g. land, building, other rights" was first mentioned by you in your fantastic list of docs needed. Read my post again - this is only for municipal land. A physical person cant provide such. If I'm wrong prove it otherwise dont twist my words and try to avoid the questions which you cant answer as your list is wrong!


This is the biggest problem of such forums is people posting something they dont actually know about!

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mememe
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Postby mememe » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:25 pm

I personally can understand when someone consistently appears to be rude, even with allowance being made for being a non-native speaker...

Perhaps that's something else to go back to school about? How to be less direct and thus more polite in a foreign language? :lol:

For instance It is preferable NOT to say words like 'stupid' or 'misleading' or (Heaven forbid) "WRONG"...

How about "I'm very sorry but I genuinely believe that you could be mistaken" (Mr Chalmondsley-Warner)?

Some people are just not as polite as they could be....


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