I HATE the wood burning stove. Any alternatives please.

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karenm
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Re: I hate wood burning stoves

Postby karenm » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:27 pm

Moscow_Wolf wrote:
karenm wrote:
Moscow_Wolf wrote:
brianj42 wrote:
rodz wrote: when your not at home or at night when you dont need the fire its not alight (same as a gas boiler.


Expanding on this bit as its not as clear cut as it sounds.

Inexpensive pellet boilers do go off at night as far as the full heating, but they still keep feeding the furnace with pellets just not as regular as when its going. This is so the fire in the furnace does not go out. This is also beneficial in cold regions as it keeps the water in the central heating system in an "above freezing" temperature.

"Most" inexpensive boilers are not self igniting so if they do actually go out then you have to relight them manually.

There are other boilers which are more expensive where they are self igniting and therefore they can go off at night and swich themselves back on in the morning.


Yourself and Rodz have me thinking now. What are the best known named Pellet Boilers, where and who makes them? What are their rough prices?

Someone else spoke about Electric Power cuts and this concerns me as my current system relies on Electricity for the pumps to circulate the hot water for the under-floor heating, boiler etc. Although, I do have a UPS backed up by a 12 v battery it does not run everything and I got a very nasty and hot steaming shock one night when the fire was roaring and the electricity went off. My temperature gauge went up from its maximum recommended temperature of 80 deg to a 100 and a pipe simply split from the pressure.

My heating engineer tells me I can't have a UPS on this side of the system and hence now, I only light my fire in the evenings (usually EVN cuts occur during the daytime unless extreme weather or a theft of cables). I don't usually have the water temperature from the fire more than about 60 deg, but there again, it hasn't been that cold - yet.

So, would the pellet boiler rely on electricity to circulate the hot water it heats or, would it shut itself down? I really ought to buy a good book on heating systems and read up as this system I have confuses me. My boiler room/house looks like an old submarine as there are that many dials, expansion tanks and the 300 litre water boiler etc.

Moscow 'Confused.com' Wolf. :?


I wouild have thought that is exactly what your UPS should be doing, I have a 150 amp hour battery UPS system which will give about 10 hours I think pumping the hot water around

If your pump is not currently supported the UPS I have is a simple feed to ther pump and two connectors for the basttery


You'd need to talk to my Bulgarian Heating Engineer who's English is as limited as my knowledge of how all of the system works hence, I need to source a good Heating Systems for Dummies type book. I believe that the UPS works on the solar side of my system, but when I asked if I could have another one for the wood burning side of the system, he said I couldn't but either he couldn't explain why or, I was too thick to understand. :(

Will get to the bottom of it eventually, but you know how it is when you're building stuff, loads of things to occupy your mind until, something goes wrong and then start to wonder why! :roll:


it may be the way thats been configured or the capacity

a seperate one will set you back 300 lev plus say 120 lev for your battery and simply feed the pump with that

tip...when he comes go onto 'google translate'

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Postby brianj42 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:32 pm

One thing I really like about the pellet boilers. I have enough plumbing capability to fit sinks, taps, toilets etc but never got inro central heating.

I fitted the whole Biomass system myself including radiators........

Cooled water in from central heating, exhaust out, hot water pipe to your central heating, chuck in the pellets......

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Re: I hate wood burning stoves

Postby Moscow_Wolf » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:36 pm

karenm wrote:[it may be the way thats been configured or the capacity

a seperate one will set you back 300 lev plus say 120 lev for your battery and simply feed the pump with that

tip...when he comes go onto 'google translate'


He could talk in plain English, but it would still probably sound like Double Dutch to me. :roll: :lol:

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Postby seathrift » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:03 pm

karenm,
I have a little trouble trying to reconcile my admittedly rusty knowledge of physics with heat pumps that appear to produce more energy than they use. My understanding is that there will always be losses in any system so you cannot get out more than you put in. Even the best Nuclear Power Stations are around 30% efficient. Heat is a product of the activity of the atoms of any material. It may be that a refrigerant has the capacity to be excited by the atoms from the air, but presumably electricity is needed to work the pump that will produce heat by compression? My question is, is there something else in the physics of heat pumps that may have been left out of your essay that would explain the apparent gain of something for nothing?
Working on your figures a the installation cost for a 3 bed house would be about £9000. The difference in cost of usage would appear to be about £200 per year cheaper than a gas installation so presumably wood would be closer, but using the gas figure it will take 9000/200 = 45 years to recover the installation costs assuming there are no maintainance costs for the heat pump. Using your figures that a heat pump will last for about 15 years it seems to me that you will never get to the situation were you are covering your installation costs.
I am not sure that I can see the advantages.
I struggle a little these days with complicated issues, so may be I have missed something?

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Postby karenm » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:27 pm

seathrift wrote:karenm,
I have a little trouble trying to reconcile my admittedly rusty knowledge of physics with heat pumps that appear to produce more energy than they use. My understanding is that there will always be losses in any system so you cannot get out more than you put in. Even the best Nuclear Power Stations are around 30% efficient. Heat is a product of the activity of the atoms of any material. It may be that a refrigerant has the capacity to be excited by the atoms from the air, but presumably electricity is needed to work the pump that will produce heat by compression? My question is, is there something else in the physics of heat pumps that may have been left out of your essay that would explain the apparent gain of something for nothing?
Working on your figures a the installation cost for a 3 bed house would be about £9000. The difference in cost of usage would appear to be about £200 per year cheaper than a gas installation so presumably wood would be closer, but using the gas figure it will take 9000/200 = 45 years to recover the installation costs assuming there are no maintainance costs for the heat pump. Using your figures that a heat pump will last for about 15 years it seems to me that you will never get to the situation were you are covering your installation costs.
I am not sure that I can see the advantages.
I struggle a little these days with complicated issues, so may be I have missed something?


Hi

They are not my figures but copied from another site, the one that I posted a link to.

The free energy comes from outside and by decompressing / compressing a gas they are able to extract a few degrees of heat at low temperatures and give that benefit in the form of hot air or hot water

I am looking personally at the hot air blowers for use in mild months of winter, these will also double as coolers for summer which I currently do not have

Maybe October, november, some of december, some of jan, some of feb, march, april

the calculations I have done shows a cost saving due to the 3:1 4;1 or 5:1 efficiency depending on the outside temperatrure

I am considering it for reasons of ease of use and not necessarily to save money

A typical 3kw aircon that uses 0.89kw is around 1100 leva plus installation so you are getting 3kw for less than the price of one.

A fan heater would cost maybe 100 leva so you have to get back 1000 leva plus whatever maintenance you will have to pay, but as I said you are getting full aircon with it.

They are doing systems that will heat your domestic hot water and Central Heating and also give you hot water when 'cooling' your house in summer



In the UK this is classed as renewable energy and the government are giving grants toward the initial cost of equipment.

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Postby karenm » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:36 pm

seathrift

Just in addition to that

Some people are putting solar panels on the roof to power/assist in powering these systems

I have a friends who is getting 2.5kw during cloudy winter days and more in summer

2.5 kw would potentially give you 2.5 X 3, 4 or 5

For the cost of kit and whatever maintenance is payable a good eco friendly solution

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Postby chappers » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:37 pm

Seathrift, There is no magic generation of energy, you just use energy that is present naturally and free. This free energy comes in the form of using the air as a heatsink. Currently you do not pay for heating or cooling the atmosphere! Maybe soon but not yet!

MW, if your heating engineer put your protection on the solar side, I'd sack him. Your burner will have a far greater heat input than your solar system, so I cant see the logic in that. Sounds like you have many additions to a modified system and it has lost its purpose. There should be no reason why you cant have a second UPS on your stove side.

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Postby brianj42 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:55 pm

Solar Panels providing your electric and pumping, Solar hot water, Air Heat pump for your heating, Water storage for your water, Reed bed for your sewer, home grown veg and meat, Electric car for transport charged off your free electric.

Perfect self sustaining solution off the grid.

Only downside is its cost you about £80,000 for the privilege and your broke

:lol:

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Postby karenm » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:00 pm

brianj42 wrote:Solar Panels providing your electric and pumping, Solar hot water, Air Heat pump for your heating, Water storage for your water, Reed bed for your sewer, home grown veg and meat, Electric car for transport charged off your free electric.

Perfect self sustaining solution off the grid.

Only downside is its cost you about £80,000 for the privilege and your broke

:lol:


Theres a solar panel factory close to ruse that is about 1/4 of Uk prices for panels

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Postby seathrift » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:13 pm

M_W re: your UPS and heating problems. I do not know what your system involves, but I have no idea why the engineer said you cannot have UPS on one side of your system. I for one do not believe him. If it is run by an electric pump then the pump will not know where the electricity is coming from, provided it is at the right voltage and amperage. It may be that he did not know how to do it, I guess. I would research the situation more thoroughly.


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