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Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:09 am
by gimlet
How many of you can remember back to the old portable Paraffin Heaters (that's ALTERNATIVE) and, Pink Paraffin and ESSO Blue? I can still remember the words to the song of their TV advertisement for ESSO Blue. What happened to them?



They went to the great car boot sale and wick reshaper in the sky! The Press had tagged them as dangerous. You can still get greenhouse ones but you are told fiercely not to use them indoors, probably because they don't meet BS falling over standards.

There are some Jap high pressure ones available but they are too pricey for the UK.

Many Arab countries have a form of diesel heater for their houses. The diesel drips into some sort of burner. Not sure how you light them but it sounds like a good idea. Probably made in the local market by some guy with sheets of copper and a hammer. That's sustainability :D

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:29 am
by karenm
gimlet wrote:
How many of you can remember back to the old portable Paraffin Heaters (that's ALTERNATIVE) and, Pink Paraffin and ESSO Blue? I can still remember the words to the song of their TV advertisement for ESSO Blue. What happened to them?



They went to the great car boot sale and wick reshaper in the sky! The Press had tagged them as dangerous. You can still get greenhouse ones but you are told fiercely not to use them indoors, probably because they don't meet BS falling over standards.

There are some Jap high pressure ones available but they are too pricey for the UK.

Many Arab countries have a form of diesel heater for their houses. The diesel drips into some sort of burner. Not sure how you light them but it sounds like a good idea. Probably made in the local market by some guy with sheets of copper and a hammer. That's sustainability :D


When I was 5 my mother told me to be 'very careful' because if I knocked the parrafin heater over it would explode!!!

Well one day I knocked it over .....I can remember laying there ' waiting ' for the explosion

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:37 am
by karenm
seathrift wrote:One further thought: The chimney for a wood burning fire must be cleaned every two or three months, depending on the heat in the flue gasses. It does not require much of a deposit on the sides of the flue to seriously slow down the flue gasses, which then cool rapidly. In the worst case liquid tar and creosote will flow down to the lowest level. A serious fire risk of course and another cause of a smoky fire.


I have a flexi pipe about 7 inches wide going to just above the ceiling level

Is it possible to bridge them and extend another few metres to the top of thew chimney or do you have to buy one that correct length

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:44 am
by karenm
jadamwilliams wrote:http://www.bgsolarpanels.com/

products look ok ,mono and poly- crystal photo voltaic panels, meeting international standards and normal lifetime guarantees for such products. but no prices given on site. Have messaged them and will post latest prices they quote - or does anyone know ?

jadamwilliams

Have not worked with solar but you seem to know a bit

With the 235 panels is that 240 volt giving 235 watt and therefore with 10 panels would that give you 2.3kw ish

How easy is it to connect to a household, I have seen 'grid tie inverters ' on e-bay but not sure if they would work on this system here

A brief rundown on how these things are set up would be helpfull

I would imagine if 10 panels did give 2.3kw that would cover most peoples basic needs and maybe a bit of heating as well, but we do not have the feed in tariff here

A significant amount of free energy per year has also got to add some long term value to the property even if the payback takes some time?

My brother is looking at a house in france that is 100% solar with a back up genny, not sure if there is a battery bank of any kind there

I used to have an inverter when I owned a canal boat running off batteries but it was either landline electric or inverter

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:33 am
by brianj42
There's a whole thread on PV, Solar, FITS, sizing, licences etc etc

http://www.mybulgaria.info/modules.php? ... light=fits

They tend to be sized on what you get out over the year, not what you need constantly, as some days better than others, cloud, rain, snow etc etc so you never get a constant 2.3kw unless you have a battery bank the size of a Polaris submarine

I would be very interested in the pricing too for something around 10kw mark if someone can actually get any sense out of them ?

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:12 pm
by BG9374
brianj42 wrote:There's a whole thread on PV, Solar, FITS, sizing, licences etc etc

http://www.mybulgaria.info/modules.php? ... light=fits

They tend to be sized on what you get out over the year, not what you need constantly, as some days better than others, cloud, rain, snow etc etc so you never get a constant 2.3kw unless you have a battery bank the size of a Polaris submarine

I would be very interested in the pricing too for something around 10kw mark if someone can actually get any sense out of them ?


Battery bank, buy a second hand forklift truck battery, lead plates the size of slabs, last forever too from what I've read.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:31 pm
by karenm
brianj42 wrote:There's a whole thread on PV, Solar, FITS, sizing, licences etc etc

http://www.mybulgaria.info/modules.php? ... light=fits

They tend to be sized on what you get out over the year, not what you need constantly, as some days better than others, cloud, rain, snow etc etc so you never get a constant 2.3kw unless you have a battery bank the size of a Polaris submarine

I would be very interested in the pricing too for something around 10kw mark if someone can actually get any sense out of them ?


Thanks Brian was not aware we had FIT here

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:46 pm
by brianj42
karenm wrote:
brianj42 wrote:There's a whole thread on PV, Solar, FITS, sizing, licences etc etc

http://www.mybulgaria.info/modules.php? ... light=fits

They tend to be sized on what you get out over the year, not what you need constantly, as some days better than others, cloud, rain, snow etc etc so you never get a constant 2.3kw unless you have a battery bank the size of a Polaris submarine

I would be very interested in the pricing too for something around 10kw mark if someone can actually get any sense out of them ?


Thanks Brian was not aware we had FIT here


You do, and it covers all alternative energies not just Solar. The biggest issue though is getting it. If you read the other thread there is some detailed posts there on how (If you have 100 years to spare) to get it.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:53 pm
by Slaphead
Thus far, if I were to answer the OPs original question, I'd say yes. There are alternatives.
Were I to be asked if the alternatives are viable I'd say no, for all the reasons posted earlier in this topic.
Any alternative that relies on electrical power will require a supply back up. There are 1000s of homes in BG without power at this moment in time due to the recent snow falls. They've been without power for days. Factor that into the equation when considering alternatives, i.e. the back up system needed.
For a wood/multi fuel powered fire the only back up power needed is that required to run the central heating pump, typically 60 watts of power. A medium sized vehicle battery and UPS will keep a central heating pump going for many hours, ours, on test, ran for almost a full day of constant running (thermostat turned to lowest setting). We have 3 vehicles and therefore have the choice of 4 batteries (yes 4 cos we bought one specifically for the UPS).
We've just been to town and back, that's charged one of the batteries up should we need it.
Our house already had a central heating system when we bought it.
I said earlier in this topic, a friend has installed a ground source heat pump system with underfloor heating. It's a new build so he wasn't replacing/modifying something that was already there. His heat pump works a treat and keeps the house lovely and warm, score that one as a success.
However, he's installed two wood burners as well, with all the associated chimney work etc. that's needed. Why? In case of power failures. By the way, he also has a reasonably large capacity diesel generator too but it's too expensive to run to back up the house power for any period of time.
The energy savings trust say that cost effectiveness of air source heat pumps depends on what they're replacing. Mind you, they've gone to great lengths to remain non-committal as everything is 'could', 'may', 'can if'.
If you need a dependable, affordable back up to cater for power outages, then you ain't replacing anything, your adding to what's there.
They also say that "During the winter they may need to be on constantly to heat your home efficiently".
Taking Karen's situation and a 33KW fire. Using a 3:1 ratio ASHP, to maintain a constant 33KW output during winter (BG is normally much colder than GB during the longer winter), you'l use 11KW of power, constantly. That's worst case. The reality is probably, like ours, Karen's 33KW fire is kicking out an average of about 15KW constant heat. Again, using the 3:1 ratio at max efficiency for ASHPs, that's a 5KW constant demand on the electricity supply.
EON charge 0.089l/KWh - day and 0.03l/KWh. Crunch the numbers folks and for one day that works out to 8.3 l/day (ish), or 249 l/month (30 day month) solely for heating. That's at the lower figure of 5KW.
So far this winter (late Oct to date) we've used an absolute max of 4 cubic of wood at 50 lev/cube.

Dontcha just lurrrve numbers?

Slaps.

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:20 pm
by karenm
Slaphead wrote:Thus far, if I were to answer the OPs original question, I'd say yes. There are alternatives.
Were I to be asked if the alternatives are viable I'd say no, for all the reasons posted earlier in this topic.
Any alternative that relies on electrical power will require a supply back up. There are 1000s of homes in BG without power at this moment in time due to the recent snow falls. They've been without power for days. Factor that into the equation when considering alternatives, i.e. the back up system needed.
For a wood/multi fuel powered fire the only back up power needed is that required to run the central heating pump, typically 60 watts of power. A medium sized vehicle battery and UPS will keep a central heating pump going for many hours, ours, on test, ran for almost a full day of constant running (thermostat turned to lowest setting). We have 3 vehicles and therefore have the choice of 4 batteries (yes 4 cos we bought one specifically for the UPS).
We've just been to town and back, that's charged one of the batteries up should we need it.
Our house already had a central heating system when we bought it.
I said earlier in this topic, a friend has installed a ground source heat pump system with underfloor heating. It's a new build so he wasn't replacing/modifying something that was already there. His heat pump works a treat and keeps the house lovely and warm, score that one as a success.
However, he's installed two wood burners as well, with all the associated chimney work etc. that's needed. Why? In case of power failures. By the way, he also has a reasonably large capacity diesel generator too but it's too expensive to run to back up the house power for any period of time.
The energy savings trust say that cost effectiveness of air source heat pumps depends on what they're replacing. Mind you, they've gone to great lengths to remain non-committal as everything is 'could', 'may', 'can if'.
If you need a dependable, affordable back up to cater for power outages, then you ain't replacing anything, your adding to what's there.
They also say that "During the winter they may need to be on constantly to heat your home efficiently".
Taking Karen's situation and a 33KW fire. Using a 3:1 ratio ASHP, to maintain a constant 33KW output during winter (BG is normally much colder than GB during the longer winter), you'l use 11KW of power, constantly. That's worst case. The reality is probably, like ours, Karen's 33KW fire is kicking out an average of about 15KW constant heat. Again, using the 3:1 ratio at max efficiency for ASHPs, that's a 5KW constant demand on the electricity supply.
EON charge 0.089l/KWh - day and 0.03l/KWh. Crunch the numbers folks and for one day that works out to 8.3 l/day (ish), or 249 l/month (30 day month) solely for heating. That's at the lower figure of 5KW.
So far this winter (late Oct to date) we've used an absolute max of 4 cubic of wood at 50 lev/cube.

Dontcha just lurrrve numbers?

Slaps.


I agree with what you have said in the main, the problem we have is that when things are harshest that is when you might lose power.

I would never do away with the woodburner but I have crunched some numbers myself and there are windows withinn the 5 months of winter (mainly the milder days and the milder months) to use ASHP's without costing an arm and a leg and come very close to the cost of wood burning.