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Pascalcho

Postby Pascalcho » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:24 pm

I really think you had a very bad lawyer.
Or none at all.

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magicvw
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Postby magicvw » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:29 pm


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Postby magicvw » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:32 pm

Pascalcho wrote:I really think you had a very bad lawyer.
Or none at all.


Why so?

Yes we do have a lawyer and we did break the law. We can appeal, but we would probably lose, because ignorance of the law is not a defence. And then we would pay costs for appealing.

If you know something that I don't please do say, rather than casting aspersions.

Pascalcho

Postby Pascalcho » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:44 pm

magicvw wrote:
Pascalcho wrote:I really think you had a very bad lawyer.
Or none at all.


Why so?

Yes we do have a lawyer and we did break the law. We can appeal, but we would probably lose, because ignorance of the law is not a defence. And then we would pay costs for appealing.

If you know something that I don't please do say, rather than casting aspersions.


This is not bulk spamming and to be honest it even isn't close to spam.
If this is categorised as spam then the lawyer probably didn't know that law, doesn't know anything about internet (does he use email?) and sure is not capable to represent you in court for such things.

Every decent lawyer could explain the judge that you are not spamming. You are just sending mail to selected people.

Yes this is Bulgaria but i never believe that a decent lawyer not gets you out without fine.

On the other side, looking at all the convictions in whole Europe considering internet cases ... I'm not surprised at all.
Looks like Europe is 10-20 years behind the rest of the world.
(France is also hilarious and in Belgium they had a world famous case against Google)

Luckely for Europe they have a huge amount of loans where they can live from. :roll:

If you can send me the law like it is written i will find out where your lawyer missed the boat.

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Postby brianj42 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:18 pm

I would have thought that the total impracticality of the website, the impossibility of getting the list, and the fact that the English version of the website is empty, should have been something for your lawyer to jump on.

I challenge anyone to get a working copy of the list.

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Postby magicvw » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:25 pm

Our lawyer didn't represent us - there wasn't a trial. There was a hearing where we were invited to present our side of the story, to one guy at the KZP, in his office. We sent a representative. I consulted the lawyer after we received the letter detailing the fine (about 6 weeks after the hearing). The letter details two laws which we broke - I don't have the letter to hand right now, but he checked the laws for us, and yep we broke them.

You don't seem to understand Pascalcho - the point is that BG's anti-spam laws are ridiculous and encompass emails which are not considered as spam elsewhere. The law in Bulgaria is not about "bulk" or even intent of the email. It is simple. You may not email anybody on the list, and we did. What would your defence be?

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Postby magicvw » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:27 pm

brianj42 wrote:I would have thought that the total impracticality of the website, the impossibility of getting the list, and the fact that the English version of the website is empty, should have been something for your lawyer to jump on.

I challenge anyone to get a working copy of the list.


We can't afford to be a test case. We would probably lose and this 1000 levs is painful enough. We are a small company.

Pascalcho

Postby Pascalcho » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:20 pm

magicvw wrote:Our lawyer didn't represent us - there wasn't a trial. There was a hearing where we were invited to present our side of the story, to one guy at the KZP, in his office. We sent a representative. I consulted the lawyer after we received the letter detailing the fine (about 6 weeks after the hearing). The letter details two laws which we broke - I don't have the letter to hand right now, but he checked the laws for us, and yep we broke them.

You don't seem to understand Pascalcho - the point is that BG's anti-spam laws are ridiculous and encompass emails which are not considered as spam elsewhere. The law in Bulgaria is not about "bulk" or even intent of the email. It is simple. You may not email anybody on the list, and we did. What would your defence be?


So you got fined after a "hearing". Your lawyer "checked" the laws and he said you broke the law.

IF it is about spam, this is not spam. Unless they have defined what spam is in the law ... No case at all.

My defense would be that the list is not available. And if it is it is the best gift fro spammers they can do. Spammers actually would give money for this list. So they cannot make it public or all these people would be spammed like hell. If they do not make it public how can you know who not to mail.
Without checking the law which probably is completely worthless, hence that they can fine without a judge saying that you are guilty.

And your lawyer cannot do anything with this?
I do understand you do not appeal, it is damn hard to find a capable lawyer in BG who really makes work of his/her cases.(everywhere i think, lawyers mostly are best in cashing)
But don't tell me this is the best a lawyer can do.
Last edited by Pascalcho on Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pascalcho

Postby Pascalcho » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:52 pm

http://www.kzp.bg/index.php/index.php?m ... nt_id=2793

So if you want to send emails safely
download link 1
download and translate link 2. This is the user guide for link 1.
Download link 3 every time you want to send mails. this is an encrypted file where the program can check whether your recipients are in the list or not.

this program lets you check whether the mail addresses you want to send are in the list or not.

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Postby brianj42 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:09 pm

Magic. In the UK its a £5000 fine !!!!! 8O

You were right in posting this. I suspect that most people don't think this through when they are setting off in business and are thinking of sending out to a list they have "obtained".

Basically unless you are sending to opt in people who have given you permission then its a big no no. And buying a list is a very dangerous game, especially the £60 backstreet specials.

Saying that, there are companies in the UK who will sell you a list of hundreds of thousands of names where the receipients have opted in at some point, somewhere.

Short version of EU directive Directive 2002/58 which is law in most EU countries:

Sending spam a criminal offence. Since 11 December 2003, two new rules apply to e-mail marketing and The Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003 states:

Use of electronic mail for direct marketing purposes

22. - (1) This regulation applies to the transmission of unsolicited communications by means of electronic mail to individual subscribers.

(2) Except in the circumstances referred to in paragraph (3), a person shall neither transmit, nor instigate the transmission of, unsolicited communications for the purposes of direct marketing by means of electronic mail unless the recipient of the electronic mail has previously notified the sender that he consents for the time being to such communications being sent by, or at the instigation of, the sender.

(3) A person may send or instigate the sending of electronic mail for the purposes of direct marketing where -

(a) that person has obtained the contact details of the recipient of that electronic mail in the course of the sale or negotiations for the sale of a product or service to that recipient;

(b) the direct marketing is in respect of that person's similar products and services only; and

(c) the recipient has been given a simple means of refusing (free of charge except for the costs of the transmission of the refusal) the use of his contact details for the purposes of such direct marketing, at the time that the details were initially collected, and, where he did not initially refuse the use of the details, at the time of each subsequent communication.

(4) A subscriber shall not permit his line to be used in contravention of paragraph (2).

Use of electronic mail for direct marketing purposes where the identity or address of the sender is concealed

23. A person shall neither transmit, nor instigate the transmission of, a communication for the purposes of direct marketing by means of electronic mail -

(a) where the identity of the person on whose behalf the communication has been sent has been disguised or concealed; or

(b) where a valid address to which the recipient of the communication may send a request that such communications cease has not been provided.

PS

The person you spammed must be someone special. To actually get on the BG no spam list you have to provide:

Application submitted electronically signed by the applicant with an electronic signature.

Mandatory details on the application are:

1. UIC (BULSTAT code);
2. legal form;
3. name;
4. headquarters and management;
5. mailing address in the country with all state institutions, telephone and fax;
6. e-mail address for correspondence;
7. government and representation;
8. full list of company email addresses and / or domain names to which the entity does not wish to receive unsolicited commercial messages;
9. statement (certificate) for ownership of e-mail address and / or domain;
10. type of entry - the initial registration, change or deletion.


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